Forum Activity for @Brad Churchill

Victor;

It's evident that you know what you are talking about technically.

However from a purely business perspective you are missing one focal point, which, if you ignore it will cause your product to be a major flop.

That focal point is your target market. You are trying to sell a product to a customer base that simply doesn't have $20,000 (don't forget shipping/duty/taxes costs) to spend on a machine that makes a VERY small amount of chocolate!

Think about this for a second: Who is your main competitor in this market? It's the Cocoatown machine. It's 1/4 of the price, and also uses stones for grinding.

With regard to whether or not chinese conche/refiners impart metal into the chocolate.... well... THAT my friend, depends on who is operating the machine. I can refine dark chocolate in my conche/refiners in 9 hours, and it will be fabulously smooth. However, this means having the blades put a lot of pressure on the sides of the machines. This causes wear very quickly and will obviously impart microscopic metal shavings into the chocolate.

There is also another very significant problem to this quick refining: oxidation. Simply put, it doesn't happen. Fabulous quality chocolate is NOT made in 12-18 hours. Period. Oxidation and flavour development takes time, and it doesn't matter if you're grinding with stones or steel.

The bottom line is this: You might very well have designed the Ferrari of conche refiners. However how many small business owners buy the Ferrari as their first vehicle, and how many of those will buy YOUR Ferrari after they outgrow the volume their old beat up Ford Pinto (and your Ferrari) creates?

As harsh as this sounds, I suspect that you haven't done your demographic homework and as a result have a very expensive boat anchoron your hands.

Hello.

This appears to be the best break through in technology for craft chocolate makers. The price point is reasonable when calculated on a cost/kg processed. It is no different than a Cocoatown as their prices have rapidly increased - close to $10K per unit now.

I would like to understand what (if any) certifications that are planned. In the US, it can be difficult to use equipment that is not UL listed or NSF certified. CE approvals can be used if you can convince your local health department.

Thank-you,

Paul Picton

Dear Ben,
-The max volume of one batch in our melangeur is up to 80kg (80/0,454=176 pounds)
-Our melangeur has independent suspension on each granite stone wheel with pressure of each maintained by the pneymatic cylinder of 100mm.
This cylinder generates the force at 6bar of 475 kg, that together with the weight of the wheel (50 kg) gives the total pressure of more than 500 kg per each grinding stone, totalling to 1000kg per two. The pressure is adjusted by changing the pressure via reducer. The pheumo cylinder has additional function - as shock absorber when the excessive clumps of raw material get under the granite stone, which is important on the loading phase.
The shaft is fixed in the stones without any plastic spacer which would be desintegrated quickly at such pressure force. The shaft rotates with the stones and is fixed on both sides with the slide bearings.
- The bowl, as 95% of the parts of the machine is manufactured of food grade stainless steel 304 AISI. The bottom of the bowl of the machine is made of 8mm stainless steel, from outside the drive shaft is connected, and on the inside the solid granite disc of diameter 600mm (23.62 inch) and 30mm (1.18inch) thick is fixed.
- The drive of 3 kwt (4 ph) is used with a big turning torque, which allows to make the loading without fear of stopping the the bowl of overloading the drive.
- We use Siemens electronic components.
- The material of the wheels and base - Hard Dencity Granite, made from the solid stone on CNC machine ensuring high precision.

Unfortunately, the self-cost of our melangeur a few times higher than 5000 usd and we cannot sell it less than 25 000 USD by economical reasons.

Our melangeur was developed and manufactured for internal use for our own projects. After i have shown our melangeur on Youtube we started getting many enquires.
After some time of contemplation i decided to allow it to be sold on the market.

About indian melangeurs, i have used Santana 11s but besides break downs discovered that it is equipped with some soft stone, or some artificial composite.
That was demonstrated to me by the stone expert when he could pry off some pieces of stone on the side of it. It would be impossible to do on the granite as it is stronger than steel.
- By the way - does anyone know what exact this material is?

We have contacted the mentioned companies for the 65 pound melangeur details. But besides the price that was different than 5000 usd and was closer to 10 thousand did not receive any technical information that i was requesting. This was the reason that made me think of developing own melangeur.

This machine is designed for professional quality and reliability and there are people that are looking for this as in any other product.

P.S. about pricey or cheap. For the years in business i am used to the understanding that if the equipment pays off within 1-3 years it is acceptable.
If we look from this perspective to our melangeur, then it can pay off within one month if the following is taken: One load of 75 kg (~170lbs) is produced and conched in 48 hours,
making totally ~ 1125 kg (~2480lbs)/month. if the finished product is positioned as super premium at level of 100 usd/kg the monthly production on this melangeur at this cost in finished product may total as 112 500 usd. I fully understand all conventionality of such an "on a napkin" calculation, but this also makes us realize if one wants to spare on the quality of professional tools and equipment.

There is always a cheaper product, material, component, but compromising with quality or materials or components is not in our policy.
We have taken best proven components and materials and implemented in a heavy duty and reliable and handy to use professional tool that also guaranteed does not wear off any material in the artisan chocolate, even in the small quantities. And many are appreciating and want all these properties in the machine of a different level.

Further to Ben's reply below, the conche/refiners I use in my shop have been in operation 24/7 for 5 years, don't use granite wheels, are completely gear driven, make 45 litres of AMAZING smooth chocolate per batch, and are 1/4th the price - about $6,000 PER MACHINE.

I'd say yours are priced about $19,000 too high.

Hi Victor,

$25,000 is a lot more expensive than existing melangers from CocoaTown and Santha--around 5 times as expensive. I'd say that qualifies as pricey.

From the videos on your youtube account, your melanger looks is impressive. The motorized stone lifting and bowl tilting are very handy, but I'm not sure they're worth $20k.

Can you give more information on why it is so much more than its competitors and discuss what improvements you've made?

Also, and forgive me if this is already on the Chocolate Life somewhere, but what is the capacity of your melanger?

-Ben

Could you please let me know on what basis you have made such a conclusion?

Ouch!

That's pricey!

PRICE
Ex-Works Moscow, Russia USD 25 000

Hi,

How much will these machines cost?

Dear All.
The machine is ready and we are processing several contracts.
Currently we have also made a batch of few machines, for which control
cabinets will be done according to customer's requirements.
(One is ready assembled for 220V 1 phase) for rest it will take 1,5-2 months
for cabinet assembling. So next 3 new orders can be done in 2 months instead
of standard 4 month lead time.
The machine is made of 304 food grade stainless steel and stones and base of
hard granite all precise laser cut.
So, we have got a Heavy Duty machine for Professional production of up to 80
kg batches of chocolate.

For any additional technical information you can visit our site
http://www.kudvic.com/en/oborudovanie.html

Kind regards,
Victor Kudryavtsev
http://www.kudvic.com
https://www.youtube.com/user/Kudvic/videos?view=0&sort=dd&live_view=500&flow
=list
https://www.facebook.com/Kudvic2

Hi John:

I could give you an answer as a sales person and an answer as a chocolate expert. As a sales person, of course we want you to buy our chocolate, because we truly believe in the quality / price of the range. And we would be happy to see you agree with us.

However, the answer as a chocolate expert is much more complex than that. What Clay indicates is correct, but allow me to give you more detail to your question. deZaan Gourmet is what I call a Workhorse Chocolate. Workhorse means that it should give you a solid quality return for the price you are paying. The chocolate can be used for production and banquet purposes, it is usually very forgiving in the tempering curves, the viscocity allows you multiple applicationsand the price should be favorable. A workhorse chocolate must have a very favorable price versus quality. deZaan fits in that range, together with the likes of Callebaut and Cacao Barry ( with caution and to some degree, which I am explaining below ).

Felchlin and Valrhona belong in a totally other category: Artisanal Chocolates. They are usually more expensive, they have more flavor profiles,thetempering curves are much more strict and they are usually best used for smaller productions, such as plated desserts, very upscale confectionery. So comparing deZaan with Felchlin and Valrhona as a rule, is something I would not agree with, because the two chocolate-families are totally different in their application. However, if a pastry chef thinks that deZaan is better than an artisanal chocolate, I will not contradict that, because it comes back to the personal preference of that chef ( see next paragraph ).

However, this is not a solid rule.All of the above isvery much dictated by your personal preference and what your customers can afford. I have seen high profile pastry chefs who will only use a workhorse chocolate, because their clientele can not afford the final product to be more than a certain price. The opposite is equally true: I have seen pastry chefs rely on artisanal chocolate, because their food budget is much bigger, because of the financial strength of their clientele.

It does not make any chocolate better over the other: it only puts you into a certain direction of choice.

Of course, one can never argue your personal preference in chocolate. That is something one has to respect nonetheless.

But I will tell you this, as a chocolate expert: deZaan can be considered as one of the best chocolates in the price versus quality spectrum. Our Milk Intense 35 and our White Obsession 30 have been revered by many pastry chefs as an extremely good chocolate and when the price is being proposed, it has raised a lot of interest. Our Cocoa Powders Velvet and Auburn are considered as one of the best, because of the deep chocolate flavor and color rendition the product offers.

Our Dark Temptation 64%, Ovation 71% have been compared favorably against our competitors, but when pricing is offered, deZaan Gourmet is again a very good chocolate.

I try not toposition the chocolate towards Callebaut and Cacao Barry, as deZaan is proving its own identity as one of the better workhorse chocolates ( price versus quality ). Ultimately, it comes down if the product fits in yourpreference and if you see the valuein the price for your customer base.

However, I would like to addwhat you are also getting for your product and that does not cost you anything more, is sustainable and responsible cocoa. Our chocolate is made with S.E.R.A.P. beans ( Socially and Environmentally Resposible Agricultural Practices ), which is the flatform for Fairtrade, Rainforest Alliance and Utz. Our program does more than just grow sustainable cocoa trees,it also makes sure the farmers are being trained in business acumen, the plantations and farms are being maintained so the farmers have a better way of living, andit also invests in educating the farmers and their familieson HIV prevention. The program is something we are extremely proud of and we like to share more with you.

If you allow me to send you samples, I would be happy to doing so, so you can try. But I would encourage you to try it and please let me know what you think of it. I am always open to opinions and we are always looking to improve our chocolate.

Sincerely,

Philippe Tytgat

philippe.tytgat@adm.com

323-351-6434

www.dezaangourmet.com

Yea I plan on trying it myself but haven't had the chance. Chocolate is very subjective but I always have this feeling that their is a "best." Thanks for the referral btw.

John:

Of course, the de Zaan rep is going to position his chocolate in the most favorable way possible to their brand - "better" than Callebaut (whatever that means and there are lots of possible interpretations - I would ask them to describe what specifically they mean when they say "better" -- it will be different) at a lower cost than the premium brands.

In the end, what matters is whether you like the taste of it - we can't make that judgment for you, and whether or not you like the way it works, technically (viscosity, temper, etc). If you don't like the taste, or it doesn't work for you, then the price does not matter.

One of de Zaan's salespeople, Philippe Tytgat ,is a member here on TheChocolateLife, you might ask him.

One other note is that de Zaan is a part of ADM ( Archer Daniels Midland ). They are one of the largest producers of chocolate and semi-finished cocoa products in the world. Definitely part of "big agriculture" -- they own ConAgra and other companies. (Take a look at the section on agricultural subsidies in the Wikepedia article.)

So - it's not surprising they can compete with Callebaut on price, the question of whether or not the quality is the same as Valrhona or Felchlin is a subject for debate.

Me, personally? I prefer working with smaller producers even though the prices are usually higher. Low(er) prices almost always indicate commodity beans which indicate that the farmers are not being paid a living wage for their crop.

What do you fellow chocolatiers think about deZaan chocolates?

DeZaan positioning seems to be high quality at competitive pricing. One rep mentioned that deZaan is just as good or better than Callebaut but at a lower cost (also comparable to Felchlinand Valrhona).

Website: http://www.dezaangourmet.com

I really appreciate you giving me that information! Thanks again. What class did you go to? Do you have any pictures of the work you did (if it was a hands on class)?

If airbrushing the proportion of vodka is more and if using paint brush higher proportion of colour to vodka . We had used PCB Gold shimmer

not yet, it was demonstrated in the class I went to.

Thank you Faranak. Have you tried this?

Hi Clay

That was my thought too but the manufacturer does not recommend mixing cocoa butter with this particular product. I just had another look at their online catalogue and it definitely says "by diluting with alcohol and apply it with a brush".

http://www.pcb-creation.com/catalogue/catalogue.php?id=000757471211f430be74d&key=ge5ZwcZ8AipX

If you copy and paste the above link in to your browser it will take you to the page I am referring to.

Thanks for replying =)

I understand it is Vodka

I have not heard about using alcohol, everyone I know who does this uses cocoa butter.

Hi! I'm looking at using some metallic powders (PCB brand) on my moulded chocolates. I know you can brush on after unmoulding the chocolate but there is also the option of mixing the powder with alcohol to spray or apply to the mould before filling with chocolate. What alcohol do you use to mix with the powder? Does anyone have experience with this?

Thank you in advance =)

If you want to go the other route (and invest 25K) -Selmi Micron Ball Refiner is what we use.

Micron - ball refiner

In two courses thatI attended, we made our own praline using a Robot Coupe Blixer 3. The praline was used for filling. The result was very good.

Omar:

I have never used either of these machines to make pralin, so I don't know from experience.

There's not a whole lot of difference between to the two outside the configuration of the stones.

The one at nutbuttergrinder.com is more like a small Santha. I would go with the CocoaTown 12SLTA over the straight SL as I think it's more robust and the tension is more easily adjustable.

I have used the CocoaTowns to make nut butters using unrefined evaporated cane juice and I can say that they do a good job of making a rustic pralin, which is what I was looking to do. You still have the same problem of jamming the rollers if you try to fill the machines too quickly - there's just not enough torque provided by the motor/belt. So you do have to start out slowly and add the nuts a little bit at a time. I never ran the pralin for more than a couple of hours, but I imagine that if you ran it long enough you'd be able to grind the sugar to the point it wasn't detectable.

Hi Clay, would a melanger/grinder such as the cocoatown one do this job fine?

http://www.cocoatown.com/index.php/melangers/new-melanger.html

Or this other one:

http://www.nutbuttergrinder.com

Thanks,

Omar

Thank you Clay!

Greg:

I am in the midst of working on a relationship with an Italian roll mill manufacturer (stone rollers) that makes 2- and 3-roll mills designed for making nut pastes, smooth pralins, and giandujas that can also be used in making chocolate from the bean. The throat widths are > 300mm.

You can get small lab 2- and 3-roll (steel) mills made here in the US with 125mm (~5") throats designed for working with paints and cosmetics. These use steel rollers and are for lab use. They might have enough throughput for your need.

I will be getting prices shortly and let you know what I find.

Would someone provide links to some roll mills?

Yes I meanpralin. Thank you everyone for your answers. I'm glad I didn't buy the Robot Coupe.

It could also be that longer processing is already enough. I was doing pralin with a Magimix (which should be roughly equal to your Wearing food processor), and it really took at least 10-15 minutes of processing until the paste was OK. Only to be sure: I used roasted nuts thrown into caramelized sugar, let them cool down, and then put the caramel-nut pieces into the food processor.

If you want to make a nut paste and no pralin, it is very similar. It also takes at least 10 minutes of processing before the nuts properly release their oil. In addtion, the type of nuts used makes a big difference. I would say, the higher the fat content, the easier to make a paste (e.g. Pecan nuts...). Alternatively, it helps to add a little bit of oil to the nuts before or during processing, such as some nut oil or a neutral tasting oil.

However, the earlier comments are all true, you'll never get a perfectly smooth pralin paste or nut paste with a food processor. There will always be a perceivable 'graininess', but for fillings I found it still fairly good and usable!

Greg -

When you say praline I am assuming pralin. Nuts cooked in sugar?

If you were just grinding nuts then this would be no problem. The challenge is the caramelized sugar. That's what you're having trouble grinding fine. The style for this kind of pralin is a l'Ancienne. You may find that you want/need a roll mill to refine this.

I don't think you can get it smooth with a food processor. Definitely not at Robot Coupe. They only have a 5 minute duty cycle, not nearly enough time to get it smooth. There is specialty equipment for this.

I'm making my own nut pastes but I can't get them as smooth as the ones in the can. Inevitably, a few people complain it's gritty. I've tried using a Wearing commercial food processor but that's not doing the trick. Would a robo-coupe be better or am I not going to be able to get it perfect with a fod processor?

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Domantas:

I've tasted a fair amount undeodorized cocoa butter and I can tell you from my experience that the butter does have a taste of its own and it depends on the recipe and other factors whether the taste and aromas of the undeodorized cocoa butter have any effect on the finished flavor and aroma of the finished chocolate. You would have to experiment to find this out.

As I pointed out in my response to Brian, I personally don't think (and I actively advocate for this view) that you can't call a chocolate made with beans from one origin and butter from another origin as "single-origin."

Another thing to consider in the butter debate is that butters from different regions have different ratios of the fatty acids that make up the triglyceride structure. This leads to different melting points (or hardnesses). If the butter you are adding has a different melting point from the butter in the beans you're using, this blending of fat melting points can result in a chocolate with a very different texture than a chocolate made from beans and butter from the same location or the same melting point. Sometimes this is a bad thing as the mixing process (an effect called eutectics) can lead to textures that are not desirable. So - if you are adding deodorized cocoa butter, take a close look at the hardness of the butter and try to find a match for the butter in the beans you're using.

Finally (for this post anyway), the vast majority of chocolate makers (small and large) do not press their own butter or use undeodorized cocoa butter, if they use butter at all. So, no, a butter press is not an absolutely necessary piece of equipment.

Brian -

Shawn Askinosie, among a very small handful of other craft chocolate makers, has a cocoa butter press and he presses butter and powder from the same beans used to make the chocolate, after roasting and grinding. So, your argument does not hold up in these specific cases.

However, yes, in general I have to agree with you. Most butter is pressed from beans of very low quality - not only not fermented, but also probably moldy and mildewed and maybe even rancid. The butter is pressed from liquor that is from beans that have not been roasted. Therefore the deodorizing process is absolutely necessary in order to be able to make a butter that does not have the defects you describe.

That said, I still stand by my point, which is that if someone is making a "single-origin" chocolate from beans grown in Peru and using cocoa butter made from beans grown in Ghana it's not a "single" origin chocolate.

Hi Clay, I just wanted to mention that per the wishes of a client I have made chocolate using our pure nacional beans and the only thing available here at the moment - non deodorized cocoa butter from a domestic peru source. You must know as well as I do that the beans used in pressing butter are often if not almost always lower quality and poorly fermented and selected. the defects of the butter were clearly evident in the chocolate. in my grand experience of 1 time doing it, it is absolutely crucial to use deodorized cocoa butter or the vinegar acid and fermentation defects in the beans used for butter will dominate the flavor of the chocolate

Clay,

thank you for detailed input!

I agree on the argument of omitting different origin cocoa butter while creating single origin chocolates. This is of the most importance if you use natural cocoa butter in the recipe. We don't want the flavors to mess up between each other.

On the other hand, deodorized butter, lecithin as well as white sugar plays more like a technical role. They do not add much of a flavor nor aroma. So, many chocolate makers go this route and add flavorless ingredients to not to cover up the cocoa bean.

In my opinion, adding natural (single origin pressed - same origin as cocoa beans) cocoa butter should provide extra aroma although there should not be any influence to flavor in general as butter has no flavor. So I still come back to this philosophical question, if the cocoa butter press is a necessary piece of equipment.. I see different point of views while speaking with different people.

Domantas:

In the opinion of many, it is impossible to make a "true" single-origin chocolate if the cocoa butter is pressed from beans that are different from the beans used to make the chocolate; it doesn't matter if the butter is deodorized or undeodorized from that perspective.

One reason that some chocolate makers give as a reason for not using added deodorized cocoa butter is that it "dilutes" the flavor of the finished chocolate. Maybe ... if you're adding a lot of cocoa butter. I haven't seen many taste tests to prove this definitively when the manufacturer is only adding a couple of percent to decrease viscosity.

The argument against using an undeodorized cocoa butter is that the flavors and aromas are different from the beans used to make the chocolate, so you have a blending issue ... does the flavor of the cocoa butter affect the flavor of the chocolate, positively, or negatively? Again, I have never taken part in a definitive taste test one way or another, but part of the answer depends on how much cocoa butter is being added.

I know of several small producers who have purchased cocoa butter presses made in South Korea and reported that they are satisfied with the production throughput and quality. The Type B press linked to is about US$11,000 ex-warehouse.

I know of an Italian-made two-pot press, but it costs over US$70,000. At that price I think you'd have a hard time justifying the investment giving the level of production you are at.